Curse

Kaleban · Dec 19, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

While you are right about the economics you are talking about, it's not what the core of this problem is about. The core issue is that SF and 600/smite are too omnipotent and efficient at the same time, and have therefore pushed practically any other profession to the back when it comes to farming and speedclearing, because they're just so good in so many situations.

So rather than nerfing Assassins only acceptable PUG build to the point where Sins are once again no longer wanted in general play, how about buffing other classes up?

Its long been acknowledged that Rangers, Mesmers, and now Dervishes and Paragons have few if ANY builds useable in general PvE, not to mention HM and elite areas.

If SF haters are genuinely worried about game balance and not excluding all but their pet classes, then they too would be calling for marginalized class BUFFING, not FotM farming/run builds being nerfed.

IF ANet handles things as usual with skill updates, Sins will be gone, again, Wars, Eles and Monks will have their "Big 3" status again, and every other profession in the game will still be a joke.

Regina's post more or less confirms that, as the most pressing issues are two farming builds and PvP, with additional issues being Hammers and Tactics? Meanwhile, scythesins and scythewars make Dervishes look like cruel jokes, and Mesmers might as well be hanging out at the pub with the Rangers.

Whether they want to admit it or not, PvE is the core of any MMORPG, even if it is instanced play like GW. When half the classes in your game are a joke, there's something wrong with worrying about farming builds, or BUFFING an attribute line on a class that already sees more play than the other half combined (i.e. Warriors and Hammer Mastery/Tactics).

[edit] And besides, speedclearing isn't even that big of a problem. How about making the other 95% of the game that isn't "endgame elite" content attractive again? Such as ALL of Prophecies? People wouldn't be trying to speedclear if rewards were boosted elsewhere in general areas. If you as a player could get an ecto drop from ANY mob in the game while in HM (albeit a much lower chance than in UW) then you'd be more inclined to try other areas, especially if ANet also decided to "rotate" drop rates. So HM UW mobs could have a 4% to 8% drop rate, while HM Ascalon mobs could have a .4% to .8% drop rate.

In all fairness, I realize there'd be a bunch of QQing about "my poor economy!" from elitists and such, but ANet really needs to reinvigorate their game, and not just focus on elite, end game areas.

Kaleban · Dec 19, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

This is why nobody takes you serious.

Paragons? Really? They are arguably the strongest profession in the game after SF.

Really? Is that why if you look on PvXWiki under "Great PvE" builds, you'll find precisely TWO Paragon builds that aren't a runner or farming build?

And you call that a STRONG profession? While you might try as usual to obfuscate the issue, the Paragon build that everyone knows about is based around "Save Yourselves!" a WARRIOR PvE skill.

Contrast that with the myriad of builds for other professions, including even Mesmer and Ranger, and you'll see that one overpowered build does not a class make. Which is exactly the point with the argument over skill balance and why in the SF thread the argument has gone on for so long.

In a game that had equivalent balance for all classes and utilized all skills (perhaps not equally, but at least situationally) you'd see a myriad of builds for each class for various areas and duties.

You don't see that in Guild Wars, and just to anticipate your lame argument, the culprit is NOT in fact Shadow Form. Its poor game balance combined with poor skill/profession planning and static monster placement and skill allotment.

Until you grasp this simple concept, you and others will never understand why builds like Shadow Form will be endemic to Guild Wars, you'll just QQ everytime they crop up. I realize the insanity of this next suggestion, but try becoming a research scientist in the biomedical field and you'll see why its a fool's endeavour to treat symptoms if its possible to cure the disease vector.

Your logic would have fought against the discovery of antibiotics like penicillin, instead claiming it was best to just let people die and give them plenty of morphine to ease their suffering. A heavy handed comparison I know, but you seem to be immune to rational thought.

[edit] I apologize for arguing with Yelling @ Cats, I don't know why my posts generate such ire from him, apart from there being a lot of words. As in the other thread, I'll just /ignore him from now on.

Ugh · Dec 19, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

How about we all stop arguing about SF? If 53 pages (and counting) of arguing didn't change their minds, repeating those same arguments in a different thread won't change them either.

DreamWind · Dec 19, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Its long been acknowledged that Rangers, Mesmers, and now Dervishes and Paragons have few if ANY builds useable in general PvE, not to mention HM and elite areas.

Are you serious?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

If SF haters are genuinely worried about game balance and not excluding all but their pet classes, then they too would be calling for marginalized class BUFFING, not FotM farming/run builds being nerfed.

Uh no...clearly overpowered shit should be nerfed. I don't care what class it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Whether they want to admit it or not, PvE is the core of any MMORPG, even if it is instanced play like GW. When half the classes in your game are a joke, there's something wrong with worrying about farming builds, or BUFFING an attribute line on a class that already sees more play than the other half combined (i.e. Warriors and Hammer Mastery/Tactics).

Half of the classes aren't a joke. PvE is easy. It is easily beatable with any class in the game. The problem is not that those classes are a joke...the problem is there is a SUPERIOR BUILD on other classes that makes people not want to play anything else. This doesn't mean those other classes are a joke. It means the superior builds are a joke.

BogusDude · Dec 19, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

While its ok for the do gooders and pvpers to applaud the upcoming nerfs i hope anet are ready for the backlash that will follow. You can say, stop whining or go play another game but the reality is, many will, infact too many will and then it'll be you guys back to complaining the games dying again.

From the majority of people i see in pve they actually enjoy alot of the SF 600/smite stuff. Hear that "ENJOY" that means we have fun with it. Unless these nerfs are replaced with something that is gonna blow us away and keep us entertained then the exodus will begin, which will be a shame, as our guild, 1000 or so 30+ members, has done a pretty good job at maintaining numbers with all the new games that came out in 2009.

The game is coming to the end of its shelf life now gearing up to GW2, things like SF and 600/smite etc give us old timers something to enjoy while we stick it out for the wait. The update to UW i applaud. I never bothered with the old UWSC but i really enjoy what you've done with it now. DO something similar to FoW and change the mobs around in dungeons and the other elite areas and you'll get a much better reaction that what your suggesting atm.

The game is far too big and spread out with way too much to do to think about going back to basics. I'd like to see more different ways of doing things like buffing up other chars, changes to dungeons and elite areas along with normal areas but obviously thats too much work, might aswell kop out and nerf what we have now.

Personally theres nothing you can do to the game to encourage me to get involved in pvp (the following people who are about to flame this post are the perfect example of why not). And i have no intention of going back 6 hour missions with half the team going afk and rage quitting.

In my eyes pve and farming is currently more FUN than its ever been and i'm a 4 year+ 10k hour+ and pretty well known for my farming abilities with every class (look me up on YT). Currently very pessimistic and disappointed at the suggestions i see so far and really hoping i'm proved wrong and you come up with something better than messing with hammers. Your far too concerned with "balancing" when the games at the point where your priorities should be security and holding onto us until GW2. I can survive without perma and 600 but its gonna take a large slice of my fun out of the game for me.

Wubbies · Dec 19, 2009, 03:49 AM // 03:49

if SF is gonna get nerfed than so should 600/smite its only fair...also any news on nerfing res sig?

Kaleban · Dec 19, 2009, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Are you serious?

Yes.

Quote:

Uh no...clearly overpowered shit should be nerfed. I don't care what class it is.

"Clearly overpowered" relative to what? As I said, other classes like Rangers, Mesmers, Dervs and Paras are clearly "underpowered" when compared to an SF Sin, as well as the "Big 3" of War/Ele/Mo. Overpowered and underpowered are just relative measurements, so its just as easy to raise underpowered classes up as it is to bring overpowered classes down. Plus, you don't risk alienating the one used build for PvE Sins.

Quote:

Half of the classes aren't a joke. PvE is easy. It is easily beatable with any class in the game. The problem is not that those classes are a joke...the problem is there is a SUPERIOR BUILD on other classes that makes people not want to play anything else. This doesn't mean those other classes are a joke. It means the superior builds are a joke.

Assume for a moment that 95%+ of GW players don't religiously check GWGuru forums... oh wait, they don't.

Then factor in that newcomers to the game won't know from the Wiki which classes are vastly over or underpowered nor that there is one specific build on a heretofore unused class, and its not as if the population of the game will be uniformly the most powerful classes.

As is shown by all the Ranger and Derv GWAMMs I've seen.

None of the classes are a "joke" I was simply using that as a comparison to the overpowered builds. For purposes of FUN which is what games are about, its more FUn to have powerful characters than vastly weakened ones. That's the whole idea and concept behind consumables and PvE skills. I would have thought all of this was obvious.

BLOODGOAT · Dec 19, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

then do what the rest do after a nerf....learn new skills...proty spirit and Spirit bond 100% need a nerf

What the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO am I reading?

Vann Borakul · Dec 19, 2009, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Yes.

"Clearly overpowered" relative to what? As I said, other classes like Rangers, Mesmers, Dervs and Paras are clearly "underpowered" when compared to an SF Sin, as well as the "Big 3" of War/Ele/Mo. Overpowered and underpowered are just relative measurements, so its just as easy to raise underpowered classes up as it is to bring overpowered classes down. Plus, you don't risk alienating the one used build for PvE Sins.

Assume for a moment that 95%+ of GW players don't religiously check GWGuru forums... oh wait, they don't.

Then factor in that newcomers to the game won't know from the Wiki which classes are vastly over or underpowered nor that there is one specific build on a heretofore unused class, and its not as if the population of the game will be uniformly the most powerful classes.

As is shown by all the Ranger and Derv GWAMMs I've seen.

None of the classes are a "joke" I was simply using that as a comparison to the overpowered builds. For purposes of FUN which is what games are about, its more FUn to have powerful characters than vastly weakened ones. That's the whole idea and concept behind consumables and PvE skills. I would have thought all of this was obvious.

Is there only one meaning of fun now? Mindless self indulgence? I thought this was Guild Wars, where skills and tactics were supposed to be the deciding factor. Where the players were not strong in comparison to the monsters and we would have to make up for it in strategy. Where brute force is for the Minotaurs.

The original concepts for this game are all gone. Skill, tactics, strategy... Why bother when you can take any of the 2-3 dozen meta builds and c+space every map? If you think that is "fun" then I suggest picking up Diablo. That's not how this game should be.

My fun is in overcoming challenge and increasing my capabilities.

OoO Rift OoO · Dec 19, 2009, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

My guess is that would fall under the "Midline" part. I also expect that, if it doesn't, she's talking about killing Discordway.

im pretty sure "midline spikes" is for pvp only, did you read the note? "gvg" aka, caster spikes.

very op

gotta love em

And, I havn't read thru the previous 9 pages, so here's my suggestion:
Stop nerfing things to oblivion, BALANCE them. Example: Smiters boon. Basically removing skills from the game is what is killing it...
A good example of balancing is what you did to PnH

zzz

Cuilan · Dec 19, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Really? Is that why if you look on PvXWiki under "Great PvE" builds, you'll find precisely TWO Paragon builds that aren't a runner or farming build?

Since when was PvX the dictator of what professions are useful or good?

It's not.

And assassins accepted in PUGs as non-permas. They have many speedy SY dagger and crit scythe builds.

Kaleban · Dec 19, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vann Borakul

Is there only one meaning of fun now? Mindless self indulgence? I thought this was Guild Wars, where skills and tactics were supposed to be the deciding factor. Where the players were not strong in comparison to the monsters and we would have to make up for it in strategy. Where brute force is for the Minotaurs.

The original concepts for this game are all gone. Skill, tactics, strategy... Why bother when you can take any of the 2-3 dozen meta builds and c+space every map? If you think that is "fun" then I suggest picking up Diablo. That's not how this game should be.

My fun is in overcoming challenge and increasing my capabilities.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, your statements in your second paragraph directly contradict those of the first.

Suffice to say, I'm not advocating mindless self indulgence as the only path to fun. In contrast to those for nerfing and exclusion, I am for ALL playstyles. You wanna permasin speedclear? Have at it. 600/Smite some dungeons? Go you. Setup a balanced team of players to conquer DoA in non-PvX gimmicky style? More power to you. Vanquish all three campaigns with Discordway? Let the fun begin.

I don't care how others play, which is why I'm for buffing underused classes to bring them up to the level of the War/Ele/Mo trinity, and if SF must be nerfed so be it, but the Sin needs some re-work then to be usable in PUG play.

And don't let the elitists fool you, PUG play is and SHOULD be an important part of any online cooperative game. It allows the casual gamers, the guys who log a couple of hours a week, to get online and accomplish something, which keeps them involved in the game, rather than spamming LFG of their under-appreciated build in any given outpost, mission or otherwise.

Meta builds exist because the game is horribly designed from the ground up. Its interesting you bring up Diablo. Diablo 2 for example will be ten years old next June, and yet I could log on right now and still find plenty of people playing. Its longevity, despite its small size in comparison to GW or WoW is due to being free to play, consistent updates over its lifetime, even into its "dog" years, and most importantly, randomization, especially in Hell difficulty.

You'd think ANet would take SOME inspiration away from that. Games that last offer replayability, which GW has none of. There's no difference in the campaigns regardless of what profession you roll through it with, each monster will always have the same mods, the same vulnerabilities, and there are no surprises.

Every time you play Diablo 1 or 2, especially on BNet, the game experience differs due to different enemies, relative power and mods, etc. Even drops are randomized by treasure class, rather than the set drops that high end mobs and chests give in GW.

While I am happy to see that ANet continues to take an interest in their flagship product, the ham-hands approach to it is disheartening, and does not bode well for the design of GW2. If they can't get ten base professions balanced, how will they possibly balance whatever number of professions across five different races? Even assuming that only the Warrior, Mage and Healer professions are the only ones introduced on launch for example, that's 15 separate possible combinations, not including any further customization such as secondary professions or cross-classing.

In the end equation, what will be, will be. Que sera sera and all that. Its just that I wish that this game, which held such promise on launch, has very much failed to ignite my imagination or hold my interest. My only reason for re-installing recently was to play with my brother who picked it up, had he not there's zero chance I would have gotten back into the game. As it is, I'm playing Oblivion again, and he's playing Supreme Commander. The "polish" of Guild Wars wears very thin when there's no substance beneath.

reaper with no name · Dec 19, 2009, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Do dervs/mesmers/etc need a buff to push them up to the level of the big 3? Hell yes. I fully agree that they need help.

Now, do sins need a buff to push them up to the level of the big 3? Hell no. They're already there, thanks to MSDB and critscythe. People just don't realize it, probably because the only assassins they've ever seen were SF sins and narutards. Buffing them even more would just make them overpowered.

Kaleban · Dec 19, 2009, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Since when was PvX the dictator of what professions are useful or good?

It's not.

It is to the multitude of weekend wammos out there who can't be bothered with sites like this or elitist jerks which use calculus to determine Gaming Theory 101. Its an extremely valuable resource for the casual gamers, which in most cases constitute the vast majority of the audience and marketing demographic.

The reason a site like PvXWiki exists is BECAUSE there are "meta" builds that stand the test of time (that interval being the period between skill nerfs). To say that those builds suck is foolhardy, if there were better builds out there that are NOT on PvXWiki, its because either they're still in testing or elitists keep their "secret" builds to themselves, a phenomenon I've witnessed on this very forum when it comes to farming builds and areas especially.

Quote:

And assassins accepted in PUGs as non-permas. They have many speedy SY dagger and crit scythe builds.

Yes they do. My 42 month old sin has a bible of builds that I found when I re-installed. Would any one of them be accepted in a group that didn't know my playstyle or whether I was effective or not? Almost assuredly no. In fact, when not running my bro through areas or helping with missions, the ONLY Sin build I've been asked to run is a Perma tank, scythesin or Crit Defenses are laughed at.

SY! is a saving grace for many PUGs, but its a warrior skill, and any non-warrior built around maintaining it, such as an Imbagon I don't consider to be a representative build. Effective, maybe, but there are arguments that show that WHEN you need SY! its most likely too late to save you.

In short, in PUGs, professions running non-meta builds are generally laughed out. It could be said they're not worth playing with but then you cut out a huge chunk of the playerbase, and most would rather run a meta build and play, rather than sit in an outpost spamming LFG of their unique build.

BogusDude · Dec 19, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Since when was PvX the dictator of what professions are useful or good?

It's not.

And assassins accepted in PUGs as non-permas. They have many speedy SY dagger and crit scythe builds.

PvX is far better now than it used to be and doesn't deserve the slating now that it used to get, a little credit to the contributions people share instead of constant belittling by people like yourself would be nice. Especially as many of the builds on there start out here on guru and make there way to pvx after being tried, tested and refined.

Either way, whatever you think of it, his quote in comparing Para builds to other prof was spot on, pvx can atleast act as a gauge in that respect and the lack of builds and para's in teams is clear for all to see

Ferminator · Dec 19, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

I'm just glad that a dead attribute like tactics is going to get some love. It's not great but it's a start.

market · Dec 19, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Leave 600/smite alone

reaper with no name · Dec 19, 2009, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So rather than nerfing Assassins only acceptable PUG build to the point where Sins are once again no longer wanted in general play, how about buffing other classes up?

Its long been acknowledged that Rangers, Mesmers, and now Dervishes and Paragons have few if ANY builds useable in general PvE, not to mention HM and elite areas.

If SF haters are genuinely worried about game balance and not excluding all but their pet classes, then they too would be calling for marginalized class BUFFING, not FotM farming/run builds being nerfed.

IF ANet handles things as usual with skill updates, Sins will be gone, again, Wars, Eles and Monks will have their "Big 3" status again, and every other profession in the game will still be a joke.

Regina's post more or less confirms that, as the most pressing issues are two farming builds and PvP, with additional issues being Hammers and Tactics? Meanwhile, scythesins and scythewars make Dervishes look like cruel jokes, and Mesmers might as well be hanging out at the pub with the Rangers.

Whether they want to admit it or not, PvE is the core of any MMORPG, even if it is instanced play like GW. When half the classes in your game are a joke, there's something wrong with worrying about farming builds, or BUFFING an attribute line on a class that already sees more play than the other half combined (i.e. Warriors and Hammer Mastery/Tactics).

[edit] And besides, speedclearing isn't even that big of a problem. How about making the other 95% of the game that isn't "endgame elite" content attractive again? Such as ALL of Prophecies? People wouldn't be trying to speedclear if rewards were boosted elsewhere in general areas. If you as a player could get an ecto drop from ANY mob in the game while in HM (albeit a much lower chance than in UW) then you'd be more inclined to try other areas, especially if ANet also decided to "rotate" drop rates. So HM UW mobs could have a 4% to 8% drop rate, while HM Ascalon mobs could have a .4% to .8% drop rate.

In all fairness, I realize there'd be a bunch of QQing about "my poor economy!" from elitists and such, but ANet really needs to reinvigorate their game, and not just focus on elite, end game areas.

*raises hand*

I've been doing that (mostly for the dervish, since that's the one I know the best) ever since I joined this forum.

Problem is, SF isn't just for farming. It also rapes general pve. That's why I want to see it die a horrible, horrible death. I couldn't care less about the economy.

For this reason, too, I don't mind the 600/Smite nerf. It isn't nearly as powerful as SF, but it is still definitely overpowered.

Now, the 55 monk, on the other hand...I wouldn't want to see that touched. That is a true farming build. You can farm with it in some places, but not everywhere.

But yes, it is amusing to see people whine about 600/Smite being nerfed, isn't it? Especially the ones who give the same arguments as SF-supporters, or (even better) the people who just say "don't nerf it" and give no explanation.

It does demonstrate that there is a lot of selfishness on both sides of the table when it comes to the SF debate. But it also highlights those who actually do have good reasons for supporting one side of it or another (ie, overpowered vs grind too extreme otherwise, as an example).

Kaleban · Dec 19, 2009, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

*raises hand*

I've been doing that (mostly for the dervish, since that's the one I know the best) ever since I joined this forum.

Good for you!

Quote:

Problem is, SF isn't just for farming. It also rapes general pve. That's why I want to see it die a horrible, horrible death. I couldn't care less about the economy.

I would contend that general PvE, beyond campaign missions and such (where its nearly impossible to use SF anyway) is basically farming, since these areas yield no benefit unless they are repetitively worked over. How many times must a man run Kathandrax before it becomes "farming?" There are many builds that are highly effective in general PvE, do they also deserve to die horribly?

Quote:

For this reason, too, I don't mind the 600/Smite nerf. It isn't nearly as powerful as SF, but it is still definitely overpowered.

I would contend that it is more powerful, it has more redundancy, more survivability, and rez capability, which is invaluable in areas like UW or FoW. Its also designed generally to kill everything in an instance, which yields more drops than running to bosses/chests, and economically speaking is much more valuable, especially when you consider things like Voltaic spears and such.

Quote:

Now, the 55 monk, on the other hand...I wouldn't want to see that touched. That is a true farming build. You can farm with it in some places, but not everywhere.

Why? Farming is farming, whether its farming random undead mobs or dungeons, who are you to differentiate and tell others how and what to farm? If I want to farm for Elite Tomes on my Permasin, why shouldn't I be allowed to? Why must I be forced to use a build I don't like? It will end up the ONLY reason is because SF was not the "pet" build of a vocal minority of players, who for whatever reason ANet sees fit to cater to.

Quote:

But yes, it is amusing to see people whine about 600/Smite being nerfed, isn't it? Especially the ones who give the same arguments as SF-supporters, or (even better) the people who just say "don't nerf it" and give no explanation.

It is amusing to see the hypocrisy, which only confirms what I've been saying about the SF haters from the beginning. If ANet were smart, they'd alter mob makeup in instances, or just randomize it, but they won't, because they're not.

Quote:

It does demonstrate that there is a lot of selfishness on both sides of the table when it comes to the SF debate. But it also highlights those who actually do have good reasons for supporting one side of it or another (ie, overpowered vs grind too extreme otherwise, as an example).

I'd wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately too many people can't see the forest for the trees, including ANet and their test "krewes" lol. The problem with skill balancing in a game with hundreds of skills is not to balance them against the mobs, but against each other. Each profession's relative power and importance to a group should be roughly balanced, such that for any given area, a party leader making a choice between a healing/prot monk and an interrupt/dom-hex mesmer would face a tough, not obvious decision.

It doesn't matter in terms of gameplay if all the classes get insta-gibbed by mobs or insta-gib said mobs, as long as all contribute relatively equally. Once you balance THAT (party composition and relative skill power) THEN you go about slowly increasing the difficulty of areas until a equilibrium of sorts is achieved. But as long as you maintain skill balance between classes, there would be no threads such as the SF debate/debacle.

Admittedly, at this point in time, ANet is unlikely to change their methods, and GW will continue to devolve to the point where it is the very antithesis of what ANet set out to create, a "skill is more important than grind or time game." I just hope for their sake and the players that they take a hard look at their balance process for GW2 and make appropriate adjustments, because if GW2 is done along the same lines, it will lose its luster much more quickly than GW, and suffer from abysmal retention.

kvndoom · Dec 19, 2009, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Good luck buffing Tactics. Besides the fact that most of the skills suck for a Warrior primary, Tactics suffers because a W/ who actually intends to kill stuff with a weapon has to spec highly into weapon mastery and strength, leaving only a few points for utility. And there's no utility in the tactics line for a damage dealer. The few good skills the line ever had were nerfed because of Paragons anyway.